To the majorities, repetition of that kind of argument seems more like a taunt than an answer. Finally, it's important to recognize that the moral standards that condemn Confederate monuments should be applied to monuments to left-wing perpetrators of historical atrocities, no less than those venerated by the right. Accessibility | He arrived just weeks before Robert E. Lee surrendered at Appomattox Courthouse and met with the two Confederate commissioners, James M. Mason (grandson of George Mason) and John Slidell, in Paris. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. We fought a “war on poverty”, and poverty is having the last laugh, and the primary victims are blacks. Such as Lincoln, since he started a war that killed more Americans than any other before or since, and he did so for empire and money and power. Like, forever? We should certainly remember them and continue to study their history. Lee told her that they should give “the final abolition of human slavery…the aid of our prayers and all justifiable means in our power,” praying for “the mild and melting influence of Christianity” over “the storm and tempest of fiery controversy” driving America to disunion. But I would sign it before I would sign one to keep Fort Bragg named Fort Bragg. While there are examples of zero-sum games in local government – think of the hunt for limited state and federal grants – much of modern economic and psychological scholarship focuses on ways to “expand the pie” and come up with solutions where one side’s gain is not necessarily the other side’s loss. citizenship. It’s incredibly hard to not put on a somewhat modern lens when judging those figures. Images of rebellion and triumph by the dispossessed can be powerful propaganda. A number of them only seceded in response to Lincoln’s acts of war against seceded states.”. They’re based on the idea that each step down the slope makes traversing the next step easier. After all, there is no telling where such removals might lead!… [T]aking down German monuments to Hitler and Goebbels might lead to the removal of monuments to Immanuel Kant, who expressed racist sentiments in some of his writings. Of course, when the statues went up, all citizens did not having equal voting power, much less equal power in their local government. Lenin was a brutal mass murderer who founded a regime that killed tens of millions of people and inspired similarly oppressive dictatorships in numerous other nations around the world. They can come down after a decision on one day supported by a duly elected city council or whatever other body has authority and responsibility for determining what monuments are up and down. The Confederate statues were put up when they were put up [not just after the war but largely during periods of Civil Rights tension in the 20th century], to send a message about white supremacy, and to sentimentalize people who had actively fought to preserve the system of slavery. That happened only a month after Lincoln Inauguration and the only “act of war” by Lincoln before that was an expedition to resupply Fort Sumter. Still, it could be we’re being a little myopic, considering how a slippery slope of PC outrage du jour could very well extend to the deracination of most of monumental America on grounds of past or current wrongs done to other races and ethnicities, women, gays, minority religions, etc. As John mentioned, one substitute for doing away with a controversial monument is building another to a more inclusive person or idea in an equally public location. Everyone acknowledges some basic truths. As Lee mounted his horse to leave, Grant saluted him. The Civil War is one kind of blood-soaked history and the reactionary Jim Crow South another difficult history. Many parts of the South remained firmly under Democratic control well into the 80’s, 90’s and in some cases even after the turn of the century. That’s a more nuanced way to differentiate between what should be torn down and what should stay that I’ve heard from some friends too. America concluded its civil war by dominating and subjugating the losers, but also honoring their bravery. And where would it go? Yes, it is true that the removal of some statues means that people might feel more free to voice their opinion (free speech) that other statues be removed. The removal in recent years of several monuments depicting Confederate leaders and other controversial historical figures by both politicians and unsanctioned activists have generated debate over whether their removal is justified. How that squares with the need to make local government more engaging and participative for citizens, I’m not sure…. But it’s precisely this lack of nuance which is at the root of our country’s historically-high levels of political polarization. Most of the arguments on both sides are the same as those made when I last wrote about this issue in 2017. Black peaceful protests, angry but not inciting speeches, strong op-eds, and constructive proposals are the real deal, not the rampaging. Do what you want on your private property. There is a suggestion that the statue of Andrew Jackson in Jackson Square be removed because Jackson owned slaves, ignoring the fact s that he was President of the United States and saved New Orleans from British Invasion during the war of 1812. Ilya Somin. Paper money was always different, though. Consider also the Southern states' official statements outlining their reasons for secession, which focus on slavery far more than any other issue…. Their mission failed. Communist and Confederate leaders are relatively easy cases, since the vast evil they perpetrated far outstrips the very small good. Because they raised in open rebellion, the 13th and 14th amendments were able to be passed in Reconstruction. Will Democrats Embrace the Imperial Presidency Now That Their Guy Is in Charge? | The removal of the confederate statues has its pros and cons as to why they should take them down. But either way this is irrelevant to the point I was making, which is that four states seceded directly in response to Lincoln’s call for troops to go to war against the South. Let’s imagine how it works in an alternate universe: 1. Make no mistake, Southern slavers and those supporting them who regarded some people as property to be used and abused merit no sympathy or homage, given the egregious lack of their own humanity. So that’s Lincoln on the cent, Washington on the quarter, and Roosevelt on the dime. Stop the removal of historical Confederate Monuments. Did those Indian chiefs take an oath to “…bear true allegiance to the United States of America?”. I do not doubt the good intention of the policy-makers of that time…but they were completely wrong in their policy approach. 1.21.2021 2:00 PM, Jacob Sullum Rushmore, along with slave-owner Washington, racist but emancipator Lincoln and white nationalist but suffrage supporting Roosevelt? More generally, a political system seems destined to become progressively less stable if it gives to smaller voting blocs an out-sized veto power to use against changes to the status quo. Wilmer, “I would surrender them all without a struggle to avert this terrible war.” Lee himself was never willingly involved in the slave economy. Odd coincidence, that. The fact that the southern states were so fanatically devoted to protecting slavery that they preferred to betray their country and kill hundreds of thousands of Americans over even the remote risk that slavery might be weakened some day in the far distant future does not, in my view, ennoble their cause. The truth that everyone knows, unless they are against that first step is, things escalate, then they taper off and there is a new platuea or valley. Such situations are unavoidable in a world where we cannot honor everyone, and there is room for legitimate disagreement about exactly where to draw the line. No one claims that we should erase the Confederacy and its leaders from the historical record. … At Appomattox, Gen. Ulysses S. Grant allowed Gen. Robert E. Lee to keep his sword. 0 have signed. Are these Antafa/BLM thugs attempting to overthrow the US government? This perception is mostly only due to the fact that the Confederacy lost. Few realize that even Mahatma Gandhi, while he was in South Africa, routinely expressed “disdain” for black Africans, describing them as “savage,” “raw,” and living a life of “indolence and nakedness” in his early writings. Throughout New England, “King” street got re-named to either “Washington Street” or “Congress Street” after the Revolution. 1.20.2021 2:25 PM. “Unreasonable” is an interesting word to choose for the likes of Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro et. ” A number of them only seceded in response to Lincoln’s acts of war against seceded states.”. We need to quickly find a civil way of arbitrating the divide between offense and history, without indulging a PC Reign of Terror. Most of us have to obey but not others, it would appear. Davis asked Kenner not to do so and rejected the idea outright, thinking that the situation was not yet desperate enough to warrant such a move, but in late 1864 he sent for Kenner and told him to put the plan in motion. After an election, maybe by citizen initiative. The vast majority of existing “Confederate” monuments were erected in the period of 1950-1980 as a direct FU to the civil rights movement. It sure worked out well, didn’t it? How were Washington, Jefferson, and Franklin traitors? Will riots and rampaging by Antifa and BLM and their illegal pulling down of public monuments help the cause of bettering not only race relations but conditions and opportunities for black Americans? These statues were NOT put up by the sort of “mob” that are taking them down. I disagree with the idea planted in the media that these violent demonstrations were genuine and spontaneous, because they don’t serve black interests at all. But what I’ve come to realize is that a lot of the inaccurate history and ideological agenda behind this push is just a continuation of the ideological struggle between decentralized self-government and the imperialist, totalitarian impulse of centralized government. There’s a huge statue of Lenin about five miles from the CHOP, in Fremont. The Russian monarchy had already been toppled by about March 1917. We have to ask ourselves who benefits from this all of this. First, removing or even moving a Confederate statue in response to angry citizens sets up a zero-sum encounter, where it is clear that one group “wins” while the other “loses.” These situations often serve to harden beliefs on both sides and raise tension. A move that stupidly self destructive boggles the mind. The South certainly had its beautiful minds and souls, then, and always will, but, now, 150 years later, though it has lost some of its regional character, it seems more universally welcoming and generous. Yeah, it seems that Richmond is among the cities to watch in terms of how much they are striving to offer all citizens an opportunity to comment – and ultimately decide on – the statues. Maybe the infamous statues can be relocated to somewhere “bad”, where there badness can be appreciated. The majorities will reason they have on their side both utilitarian and moral advantage. Thanks, Mark. Quoting Donald Trump, Bernstein asks: “Where does it stop?,” a question Hays echoes. The Constitution never would have been ratified if it were made plain that a President could invade and kill citizens of a state that seceded. Post-reconstruction, Jim Crow, segregation, etc., the South has continued to fight a guerrilla war (though the bullets have generally not been aimed at U.S. troops) ever since. If you can’t argue against pulling down statues without going full tin-foil brigade, this may indicate a problem with your side’s ability to persuade. When he died in 1850 he left the bulk of his fortune including his properties to the to the cities of Baltimore and New Orleans for the purpose of building public schools for poor white and freed black children. To add to this thread; Richmond VA has a mayor’s initiated citizen commission examining its confederate statuary. They are already turning on Founding Father and clergy statues now that they’re running out of Confederate monuments. Are you sure it’s not just in your head? It’s through this discussion, for instance, that a black resident might learn that nearly a quarter of Southern white men in their twenties died through conflict or disease as a result of the Civil War. “A number of them only seceded in response to Lincoln’s acts of war against seceded states.”. They’re putting the rest of us into house lockdown and mask bondage over the flu and very questionable statistics, not to mention dismantling the economy, while proclaiming the violence in the streets against racism and its costly destruction trump the fight against deadly disease and any consideration of cost. (They brag about fighting Nazis in Germany, but they were fighting EVERYBODY but the communists, because they were fighting for a communist dictatorship.). Should they go as well? I assume, if he considered it at all, he would place it under the first but David Dorn is just as dead as George Floyd. And both Maryland and Kentucky were prevented from seceding by direct federal government and military action. That’s because they’re communist mobs, or at least communist organized. As I’ve said before, I support and encourage the legal taking down of public monuments, as agreed upon by their citizen owners and campus trustees and all those offended by them. Lincoln was bent on preserving empire and he was bent on war as necessary to do so, and that is why he made war. Are others in opposition to our United States different? Shame that the rioting and destruction manage to engender fear in some sectors but, overall, little additional respect for the cause and appear to be of a piece with the Covid fear campaign of command and control by the State. We know this now. My views on this topic have evolved in the nearly three years since writing this post. So doing it this way is fine.”, “What is funny is you have no problem that mobs acting in the passion of the moment put up these statues”. Thanks for sharing, Sharon. There’s been some minimization of property attacks around here lately, as if Kristallnacht wasn’t violent; that’s not what I intend.]. They were part of an effort to claw back at least a partial victory and rehabilitate the racial hierarchy for which people like the traitor Lee fought. https://bit.ly/2V4FRMI. | Iconoclasm – or the political belief in the importance of destroying certain icons or monuments – is tempting, especially when the targets – Confederate statues – serve as daily reminders of government repression among some of its victims. For two states there isn’t a specific date of secession. I think that, if a monument has been in place for decades, if should not be torn down in a moment of passion, by a transitory majority responding to literal mobs. I did not happen to grow up in the deep South but believe the vast majority of its population today is not racist or wanting to refight the Civil War. But that wasn’t even remotely close to happening. Over the last several years, some 130 Confederate monuments were removed through peaceful means. A good number of people (I can’t judge whether they are “well-meaning” or “good-hearted”) demanded that he be returned to his honored position on campus. May I suggest consulting Percy Shelley’s “Ozymandias” for some guidance? Check your dates again. My support for the United States does not imply anything about my opinion of the Russian monarchs, nor the regime that replaced them. . Getting rid of monuments to Lenin and Stalin might lead people to take down monuments to Picasso, who was also a communist. Preferably, in a democracy, this would be a majority of people, not just the power brokers. Look at all of the southern black city and town mayors, police chiefs, DAs, other office holders, and governmental workers in recent decades. The man was not honorable and should be afforded no honor. However, without limits, the outcome may prove to be even more unhealthy for community members and governments both. Before political action gets initiated, politicians ask how many favor it, vs. how many opposed. When his wife inherited some slaves through her father-in-law, Lee freed them in accordance with his wishes, and stayed in touch with many of them. O n June 4, Virginia Governor Ralph Northam announced that Richmond’s largest Confederate statue will be removed—one among the many statues in … Between blacks and the substantial minority of southern whites who wanted to stay in the Union, it is likely that secessionists did not enjoy majority support in any state. The case for taking down Confederate monuments is strong. Because once you do, you’re back where you were, not wanting to finish a journey of 1000-n steps, and somebody’s saying “this is just one step, why are you objecting? Their letter to Congress warns about inevitable abuses against religious and racial minorities. The Associated Press was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution" and that protecting it was the "cornerstone" of the new Confederate government. So you’re arguing against the basis for taking these statues down? Of course statutes honoring people for bad reasons should come down. If statues honoring people that I think are good people and worth honoring are removed, well, maybe I should convince people they are worth honoring. My article takes more of a long-term view, one that takes into account the negative of taking down the statues years down the line, even in the face of massive public opposition to them. Oh, and it was fought by the party of slavery and Jim Crow. They are traitors. It’s funny because they *are* in fact, tearing down statues of Jefferson and Washington. Terms Of Use, The Rights and Wrongs of Taking Down Monuments, condemned early efforts to honor Confederates, that of Confederate President Jefferson Davis himself, official statements outlining their reasons for secession, chose the Confederacy over the Union in large part for that very reason, Nor can the Confederates be defended on the ground that they were fighting for the "self-determination", some 40% of the population of the seceding states, blacks and the substantial minority of southern whites who wanted to stay in the Union, wrong to remove monuments to communist mass murderers like Lenin and Stalin, expressed racist sentiments in some of his writings, the Boston Common memorial to the 54th Massachusetts, some 130 Confederate monuments were removed through peaceful means, defend monuments to the likes of Vladimir Lenin, a regime that killed tens of millions of people and inspired similarly oppressive dictatorships in numerous other nations around the world, unavoidable in a world where we cannot honor everyone, and there is room for legitimate disagreement about exactly where to draw the line, Free to Move: Foot Voting, Migration, and Political Freedom, Democracy and Political Ignorance: Why Smaller Government is Smarter, https://mises.org/library/founding-fathers-smugglers-tax-evaders-and-traitors, Joe Biden Doesn't Want to Be Another 'Deporter in Chief', Here's How Donald Trump's 'Patriot Party' Could Become a Political Force, Biden Set To Entrench Trumpist Protectionism With 'Buy American' Order. NEXT: DOJ Should Not Let Chief Justice Roberts Decide Anything Concerning the SDNY U.S. Attorney. Protesters in the movement protesting the killing of George Floyd tore down the statue of Jefferson Davis on Monument Avenue. In the eyes of anyone who doesn't already support removal, it just makes critics of honoring the Confederacy look like a bunch of hooligans and thugs. Somehow, we either uphold our principles of freedom and individual dignity that have always been imperfectly met to, sometimes, tragically forgotten, and historically contextualize them, or we lose the past and forget who we are now. They are for breaking up. Four people were charged with criminal mischief, though those charges were later dropped, after tearing down a statue of Confederate Army … Here are some challenges I see about how community conversations could proceed that would make it harder for people to come together and manage their differences. I didn’t see anyone here argue that Lincoln was a god or Uncle Sam is a protector of innocents. As Illya states, it is wrong for groups of people to physically tear down statues that are either public property or someone else’s private property. I recognize there are close cases where it is hard to tell whether the good a historical figure did outweighs the evil by enough to justify honoring them with a monument. Never happened. al. Slippery slope isn’t a fallacy if its happening before your very eyes. Actually, many of the states made no mention whatsoever of slavery in their official statements. “Actually, many of the states made no mention whatsoever of slavery in their official statements. There is a reason preserving monuments to traitorous Confederate soldiers is a mission pushed almost exclusively by Republicans. Once upon a time the faces on US coinage were all, so far as I know, either anonymous Indians or metaphorical figures from classical mythology. Removal through persuasion can help achieve that goal. Should the University of Virginia or the University of Missouri remove their monuments to our nation’s third president? In the summertime, that can get plenty Hellish. Washington, Jefferson, Franklin and the rest were also traitors, so perhaps you are right, and the same applies to them. He devised a scheme where his slaves could be freed after a period of service, donated money to to the American Colonization Society which facilitated at least some of his freed slaves immigrating to Liberia. Having a statue of a confederate leader such as Robert E.Lee who was a slave owner does not portray a hero or good leader that the society should look up to. Douglass was right back then, and he is still right now. The Danger of Confederate Statues, and the Danger of Removing Them This entry was contributed by Kevin Amirehsani, ... decide on – the statues. The image of the Confederacy in popular culture today is vastly different from what it was several decades ago, even if there are still significant pockets of pro-Confederate sentiment out there. Might they take over a smaller party instead? Some of these monuments being torn down are monuments to the unknown soldiers that never returned and were buried in mass graves on the battlefield. Moreover, a negotiated solution could even include non-physical substitutes, such as increased funding for minority scholarships or a public commitment to make local government hiring more diverse. Anybody want to sign? This site welcomes a variety of viewpoints and perspectives on community engagement. Had they not rebelled, the southern states could have held off these amendments in Congress, because they controlled enough Senators. Picking the guy(s) who won the war(s) rewards people who just happened to be in the right place at the right time, but at least it tend to be unequivocal. So name all the politicians that switched parties, jackhole. Cool. Also, how about the statue of Abraham Lincoln that some people in Boston want to be torn down because it also depicts EMANCIPATED slave with Lincoln, how is that racist?! By contrast, removal through rioting and vandalism does no such thing. In fact, even Robert E. Lee opposed Confederate statues. Gerald Herbert / AP Second, Lee initially opposed secession, but his loyalty to his native state – the Commonwealth of Virginia – surpassed his loyalty to the abstraction of the Union. It still doesn’t make slavery right, it wasn’t. “the US government was willing to make virtually any accommodation to avoid war.”, Um, well, anything except entertain the possibility of peaceful separation. They weren’t part of reconciliation. “lT]he Founders deserve commemoration because their complicity in slavery was outweighed by other, more positive achievements, such as establishing the Constitution. 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